tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19575546.post115756199149978382..comments2024-03-17T09:07:56.678+01:00Comments on The Gaming Philosopher: A culture of criticism, part IVictor Gijsbershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12770054233775973753noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19575546.post-69839890610260600472010-10-19T15:54:56.118+02:002010-10-19T15:54:56.118+02:00I admit, my response was a lot like Timfire's....I admit, my response was a lot like Timfire's.<br /><br />The aesthetic response has an immediacy that the sourcebook won't get to: it has to happen in play.<br /><br />How to make that happen in play is tricky business. In my youth, we had some remarkable effects come about through role-playing; but we had long jettisoned any rules. We just wung it.<br /><br />But this becomes a Conradhttp://onewetsneaker.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19575546.post-1159375483866788292006-09-27T18:44:00.000+02:002006-09-27T18:44:00.000+02:00Hey Thomas,Yeah we do agree; I coulda said that be...Hey Thomas,<BR/><BR/>Yeah we do agree; I coulda said that better. What I'm trying to offer is that any criticism bound completely on one or the other is useless. If you only criticize based on some ideal, with no attention paid to the opinions of others, then you doing so only for your own benefit. Likewise, if you work strictly from commenting on things that the lowest common denominator Fang Langfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17342369373992644052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19575546.post-1158248071214228312006-09-14T17:34:00.000+02:002006-09-14T17:34:00.000+02:002006 will go down as a watershed year for Indie-RP...2006 will go down as a watershed year for Indie-RPGs (creator owned RPGs). Going from $19k to $33k at the Forge booth is a significant jump. The proliferation of blogs this year has seen a significant jump. The numer of new games and new designers has seen a significant jump. Something is happening. It's big. And it started, really started, in 2006.<BR/><BR/>Peace,<BR/><BR/>-TroyTroy_Costisickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15025106072717054363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19575546.post-1158224022777748742006-09-14T10:53:00.000+02:002006-09-14T10:53:00.000+02:00Hi Chad,Nope, I didn't know them, but just read se...Hi Chad,<BR/><BR/>Nope, I didn't know them, but just read several. A useful resource, and part of what I have in mind. I would also like more explicit analysis; reviews informed by actual play experiences; and reviews that do not end with "you should buy this". But yes, the kind of overview yu give certainly has its rightful and important place in a culture of criticism.<BR/><BR/>Regards,<BR/>Victor Gijsbershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12770054233775973753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19575546.post-1157908341741596952006-09-10T19:12:00.000+02:002006-09-10T19:12:00.000+02:00I think one reason for the lack of good criticism ...I think one reason for the lack of good criticism in the indie scene, where I think it would be more likely to happen (and unlike Tim, I don't really see it happening), is that we all sorta know each other and there's the danger of that stuff getting personal real fast.<BR/><BR/>For example: There was a thread where I mentioned my annoyance with all the games with "shadow" in their title (TSoY, Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19575546.post-1157820688146744022006-09-09T18:51:00.000+02:002006-09-09T18:51:00.000+02:00Sorry about derailing your post. While I do believ...Sorry about derailing your post. While I do believe there are fundamental differences between RPGs and film/literature/plays, and I believe we must recognize and embrace those differences if we hope to develop the "art" of role-playing, I will leave that aside for the moment.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, I will say I disagree with you that a culture of critism doesn't exist. Maybe it doesn't in the Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19575546.post-1157800860419498842006-09-09T13:21:00.000+02:002006-09-09T13:21:00.000+02:00I agree with that completely, Ian.I agree with that completely, Ian.Victor Gijsbershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12770054233775973753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19575546.post-1157709448548791182006-09-08T11:57:00.000+02:002006-09-08T11:57:00.000+02:00@ RogerCertainly, "if we want RPGs to become art" ...<B>@ Roger</B><BR/><BR/>Certainly, "if we want RPGs to become art" is a big <I>if</I>. But let's say that it's an <I>if</I> that, on this blog, is a premise. I do not have a problem with people who want RPGs to be simply relaxing entertainment; and I don't think there needs to be any tension between these two aims. Some books are art; some are relaxing entertainment. The same could - and already Victor Gijsbershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12770054233775973753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19575546.post-1157662216711499592006-09-07T22:50:00.000+02:002006-09-07T22:50:00.000+02:00(Victor, it seems I'm going to take you up on your...(Victor, it seems I'm going to take you up on your offer...)<BR/><BR/>Fang,<BR/><BR/>I agree with most of what you say, but I consider this statement to be too extreme:<BR/><BR/><I>Design theorists cannot simply become critics or determine criteria unless they first acknowledge that they are seeking to understand the bulk of audience and what they like. Basing critical theory on some kind of 'Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19575546.post-1157652070009836452006-09-07T20:01:00.000+02:002006-09-07T20:01:00.000+02:00Victor,That has to be about the most cogent plea f...Victor,<BR/><BR/>That has to be about the most cogent plea for criticism I've ever heard. Here, here!<BR/><BR/>However, I believe you under-inform your audience. In the fact that they are the most important critic.<BR/><BR/>In order to evolve what you are asking for, the main element has to be the audience. The audience becomes choosy and then you wind up with <I>reviewers</I>. The reviewers Fang Langfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17342369373992644052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19575546.post-1157638439164976152006-09-07T16:13:00.000+02:002006-09-07T16:13:00.000+02:00> If we want roleplaying to become an important fo...> If we want roleplaying to become an important form of art, we must have Great Games.<BR/><BR/>That's a pretty big <I>if</I>. It's a fine premise, but I think it's worthwhile to keep in mind that there's a number of people who don't care at all whether roleplaying every becomes "an important form of art", as well as people who think that would be the worst thing that could possibly happen to itAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19575546.post-1157630206558004142006-09-07T13:56:00.000+02:002006-09-07T13:56:00.000+02:00There's so much stuff coming out now that I would ...There's so much stuff coming out now that I would have called awesome (or amazing, or ground-breaking) just three years ago - and it's changing the way I look at games. The standards are way, way higher, and the sheer body of available techniques is huge.<BR/><BR/>It's like with 3D computer graphics. In the beginning, it was _so_ cool to see spinning cubes. Then some serious ray-tracing started, Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19575546.post-1157618350535171412006-09-07T10:39:00.000+02:002006-09-07T10:39:00.000+02:00Hi Tim,We partly agree. In this post, I stressed t...Hi Tim,<BR/><BR/>We partly agree. In this post, I stressed the importance of having Great Games. But we also need an audience able to play them to full effect, and we need to think about shaping such an audience. The play that results from such an audience can, in its turn, be art. So, yes, there is an artistic aspect to actual play, and we should try to improve our community in that respect.<BR/Victor Gijsbershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12770054233775973753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19575546.post-1157615877125589692006-09-07T09:57:00.000+02:002006-09-07T09:57:00.000+02:00Tim,Roleplaying is a performing art, just like mus...Tim,<BR/><BR/>Roleplaying is a performing art, just like music, theater, and dance. In other performing arts there isn't just the performance, you have the piece being performed: A song in music, the play in theater, the choreography in dance.<BR/><BR/>Those are works of art in itself. Shakespeare's Hamlet was meant to be performed, but the play's still an important piece of art in itself.<BR/><Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19575546.post-1157588554392873712006-09-07T02:22:00.000+02:002006-09-07T02:22:00.000+02:00Tim,I don't really want to get into a big argument...Tim,<BR/><BR/>I don't really want to get into a big argument on Victor's blog, but I think you're wrong about him being wrong. :)<BR/><BR/>I basically think that there are two entirely separate things that can be judged artistically (which, for me, means aesthetically) in roleplaying: 1) As you point out, play itself is often aesthetic. We can totally talk about actual play in critical and Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19575546.post-1157574817977148312006-09-06T22:33:00.000+02:002006-09-06T22:33:00.000+02:00"If we want roleplaying to become an important for...<I>"If we want roleplaying to become an important form of art, we must have Great Games. Therefore, we must build up a community that allows designers to shape themselves into Great Artists."</I><BR/><BR/>You lost me right there... I'm sorry, I'm being purposely snarky. <BR/><BR/>I think there's a very important thing that needs to be grasped here---RPG's ARE NOT, and NEVER WILL BE art... ACTUALAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com